Jim Kukral: Search Engine Marketing Firms Are Stupid
Terry Reeves
· 2 years ago
Your position in a search and your conversion rate are two completely different functions. Getting to the top of any search engine has nothing to do with your conversion from the visitors that find the site. However, conversions can be affected by the text the searcher reads from the search listing.
You see, good seo is about optimizing the search result listing as much as it is about getting to the top. Good conversions are about taking that interested visitor and giving them what they are searching for. As a seo myself, it is not my job to sell the product for you. It is my job to sell the site to the engines and give them what they are searching for.
Now, if you are so busy, lazy or simply do not have the passion to write compelling copy to sell the products or services you have on a website, then those services can be contracted as well. Personally, I find those who fall into these categories to be the worst clients. Throwing money at a product or service will not always make it profitable and I have better things to do than to be the contracted marketing department for a pseudo internet marketer.
Jim Kukral
· 2 years ago
You are completely missing the point Terry.
You're blaming it on the clients? That's the wrong way to think. Again, you're missing the point entirely.
Remember, it's not what YOU perceive to be true, it's what your customers perceive to be true. The ones who pay the bills get to define the reality.
Side note: why don't the paragraph breaks in the comments of this wordpress template work? Looks horrible, anyone know how to fix in stylesheet?
Tony
· 2 years ago
Wait a second.
Are you saying that clients should demand that SEO's deliver on conversion as well?
I agree that the most important metric is what gets taken home at the end of the day -- but there are lots of ways to get there. Traffic and conversion are two related, but largely independent factors.
High traffic + poor conversion can equal poor traffic + high conversion.
Clients can demand SEO's deliver on conversion, but really, then they're also asking that SEO's act as conversion experts. Traffic generation, lead conversion, and customer retention are three separate arms. If clients are willing to pay, that's fine.
But since they're two different functions, they'll probably expect to pay much more.
t
Jonathan (Trust)
· 2 years ago
Agree with the other posters. Conversions are up to the merchant. SEO firms are there to get you traffic. If you're having trouble with conversions, you find somebody who knows usability or marketing. And they're not stupid, I realize calling them stupid is a common bait technique but most know what they're doing and a lot of them have more clients than they can handle.
Marcel Wagemeesters | J8 Zoekm
· 2 years ago
I think you are 100% right! It's all about conversion and ROI. And not about more traffic.
Jim Kukral
· 2 years ago
"Are you saying that clients should demand that SEO’s deliver on conversion as well?"
Actually, what I'm saying is that seo firms who don't do that already are underserving and devaluing their own services to their customers.
So charge more, fine, but don't sell "traffic" as a result and expect your customers to like it. They don't, believe me. SEO firms may have convinced them to like the taste, but in reality, it takes like crapola.
Clients deserve better. The best seo firms get this.
Tony
· 2 years ago
Well, I think you and I are on the same page here. Traffic in and of itself is insufficient for the bottom line; but on the other hand, it is necessary prerequisite. After all 100% conversion of zero traffic is still zero.
Marcel Wagemeesters | J8 Zoekm
· 2 years ago
0% conversion of 100% traffic is also still zero.. !
Jim Kukral
· 2 years ago
Tony, I'll take 100% conversion and 1% traffic over 1% conversion and 100% traffic anyday.
Sure, in the end it's the same thing, of course, but I just pay less bandwidth for the first example. :)
Cy
· 2 years ago
hi jim:
I completely agree with you.
while i have not hire any SEO before, i have been "stupid" as you said.
In my first year of being an affiliate, I am so obsessed with my site rankings and SEO. However, after I concentrate on driving targetted and conversion my profit soars.
cheers, CY
Steve James
· 2 years ago
I think from the client perspective, it's about conversion. This goes beyond SEO. If they are selling dog turds, it's their job to have the marketing plan in place. It's the SEO's job to optimize their marketing plan for the web, by improving content, design, code, and off-page factors for the search engines.
You can SEO the hell out of a dog turd.. But in the end, if there is no demand, there will be no sales regardless of the traffic.
Johny Xantas
· 2 years ago
From your index page
"...create you an amazing business-blog that will increase your search engine rankings..."
From Your Post
"Look, if you’re a search guru, or seo firm, you need to stop talking about “the first page of Googleâ€, and “higher rankings, and “getting more linksâ€, and instead start talking about..."
Doesn't "hihger rankings" mean the same thing as "increase your rankings"? Looks like you are stupid as well. You may want to take some of your own advice.
A marketing firm could do an incredible job marketing a site and if the product blows there won't be conversions. It is all about conversion in the end, but when you pitch a client they want "higher rankings." You are right and you are wrong and according to yourself, you are stupid.
Jim Kukral
· 2 years ago
Hey Johny,
I'm selling business blogs. A benefit of a good blog is higher search engine rankings.
Read the rest of the entry jackass..
"Want to rank higher on the search engines, flood your website with sales, and improve your relationships with your customers in one step?"
I preach conversions and "more" than just high rankings. That's what I'm saying.
Keep blaming the customer, see how far it gets you.
Steve James
· 2 years ago
Jim,
I would think (or hope) that your business is at a state where you can turn down proposals that have no hope of succeeding, like my dog turd example. However I believe for some new to the biz, or struggling and needing work, advertising that building traffic would be a way to get in the door since the results can be seen quickly, while conversion increases take a little longer in most cases. Am I right in this thinking?
Thanks, Steve
Johny Xantas
· 2 years ago
Calm down there Jimmy, no need to get your oversized panties in a wad. I never said anything about blaming the client. A marketing firm does not have 100% control of the factors that play into conversion so it is about increased rankings. “Higher rankings†is what they come crying for so that is how t pitch em. Of course conversion is important but you are still a hypocrite.
Jim Kukral
· 2 years ago
Thanks Johny. Have a great weekend.
Johny Xantas
· 2 years ago
You too!
AndyBeard
· 2 years ago
Jim has a point
You can SEO a site for the top search query in a niche and quadruple the traffic, and only increase sales by 10%, because most of the buying traffic is actually coming from the long-tail.
There is a benefit in SEO with a PPC mindset, target more low hanging, high conversion traffic.
I think he is also saying there is a difference between what a customer wants and what they need, and in the mind of an internet marketer, more profitable sales wins over more traffic.
Frits Straatsma | datewereld
· 2 years ago
A part of the search engine marketing firm's responsibility should be finding out what the frases are the better clients find their way to the company with.
mark rush
· 2 years ago
Dont know what seo firms youve been talking to but my advice is look further afield as in my experience, MOST seo firms get to know a business, then its customers before taking on a campaign... i know I do.
Bryan Eisenberg
· 2 years ago
Jim,
You are a 110% correct. This is why Search Guru Mike Grehan has said "SEO is Dead." Since I started publishing in this industry over 8 years ago very few people until recently have been talking about conversions in the search space. The issue the SEO industry faces is a marketing one and unfortunately there are many who may believe they are marketers but they have spent all their time talking about algorithms, code and technology and very little about what marketing is really about; people and why they do the things they do. Check out SEO for Beginners & Marketing Amateurs http://www.grokdotcom.com/2007/06/25/seo-for-be... to get SEOMoz's Rand Fishkin's significant other's brutally frank opinion on the SEO problem..
Jim Kukral
· 2 years ago
Bryan, thanks for stopping by my blog and commenting. Glad to hear that I'm not crazy from someone I respect as much as you.
For anyone who doesn't know what Bryan is, does, or has done, click his name above and start reading everything. It might take 6-months, but you'll be smarter for it.
Bryan Eisenberg
· 2 years ago
Thank you Jim. I am flattered. You know the respect goes both ways.
All Comments
You see, good seo is about optimizing the search result listing as much as it is about getting to the top. Good conversions are about taking that interested visitor and giving them what they are searching for. As a seo myself, it is not my job to sell the product for you. It is my job to sell the site to the engines and give them what they are searching for.
Now, if you are so busy, lazy or simply do not have the passion to write compelling copy to sell the products or services you have on a website, then those services can be contracted as well. Personally, I find those who fall into these categories to be the worst clients. Throwing money at a product or service will not always make it profitable and I have better things to do than to be the contracted marketing department for a pseudo internet marketer.
You're blaming it on the clients? That's the wrong way to think. Again, you're missing the point entirely.
Remember, it's not what YOU perceive to be true, it's what your customers perceive to be true. The ones who pay the bills get to define the reality.
Side note: why don't the paragraph breaks in the comments of this wordpress template work? Looks horrible, anyone know how to fix in stylesheet?
Are you saying that clients should demand that SEO's deliver on conversion as well?
I agree that the most important metric is what gets taken home at the end of the day -- but there are lots of ways to get there. Traffic and conversion are two related, but largely independent factors.
High traffic + poor conversion can equal poor traffic + high conversion.
Clients can demand SEO's deliver on conversion, but really, then they're also asking that SEO's act as conversion experts. Traffic generation, lead conversion, and customer retention are three separate arms. If clients are willing to pay, that's fine.
But since they're two different functions, they'll probably expect to pay much more.
t
Actually, what I'm saying is that seo firms who don't do that already are underserving and devaluing their own services to their customers.
So charge more, fine, but don't sell "traffic" as a result and expect your customers to like it. They don't, believe me. SEO firms may have convinced them to like the taste, but in reality, it takes like crapola.
Clients deserve better. The best seo firms get this.
Sure, in the end it's the same thing, of course, but I just pay less bandwidth for the first example. :)
I completely agree with you.
while i have not hire any SEO before, i have been "stupid" as you said.
In my first year of being an affiliate, I am so obsessed with my site rankings and SEO. However, after I concentrate on driving targetted and conversion my profit soars.
cheers,
CY
You can SEO the hell out of a dog turd.. But in the end, if there is no demand, there will be no sales regardless of the traffic.
"...create you an amazing business-blog that will increase your search engine rankings..."
From Your Post
"Look, if you’re a search guru, or seo firm, you need to stop talking about “the first page of Googleâ€, and “higher rankings, and “getting more linksâ€, and instead start talking about..."
Doesn't "hihger rankings" mean the same thing as "increase your rankings"? Looks like you are stupid as well. You may want to take some of your own advice.
A marketing firm could do an incredible job marketing a site and if the product blows there won't be conversions. It is all about conversion in the end, but when you pitch a client they want "higher rankings." You are right and you are wrong and according to yourself, you are stupid.
I'm selling business blogs. A benefit of a good blog is higher search engine rankings.
Read the rest of the entry jackass..
"Want to rank higher on the search engines, flood your website with sales, and improve your relationships with your customers in one step?"
I preach conversions and "more" than just high rankings. That's what I'm saying.
Keep blaming the customer, see how far it gets you.
I would think (or hope) that your business is at a state where you can turn down proposals that have no hope of succeeding, like my dog turd example. However I believe for some new to the biz, or struggling and needing work, advertising that building traffic would be a way to get in the door since the results can be seen quickly, while conversion increases take a little longer in most cases. Am I right in this thinking?
Thanks,
Steve
You can SEO a site for the top search query in a niche and quadruple the traffic, and only increase sales by 10%, because most of the buying traffic is actually coming from the long-tail.
There is a benefit in SEO with a PPC mindset, target more low hanging, high conversion traffic.
I think he is also saying there is a difference between what a customer wants and what they need, and in the mind of an internet marketer, more profitable sales wins over more traffic.
You are a 110% correct. This is why Search Guru Mike Grehan has said "SEO is Dead." Since I started publishing in this industry over 8 years ago very few people until recently have been talking about conversions in the search space. The issue the SEO industry faces is a marketing one and unfortunately there are many who may believe they are marketers but they have spent all their time talking about algorithms, code and technology and very little about what marketing is really about; people and why they do the things they do. Check out SEO for Beginners & Marketing Amateurs http://www.grokdotcom.com/2007/06/25/seo-for-be... to get SEOMoz's Rand Fishkin's significant other's brutally frank opinion on the SEO problem..
For anyone who doesn't know what Bryan is, does, or has done, click his name above and start reading everything. It might take 6-months, but you'll be smarter for it.